Whether folks are going to LA for this weekend’s Pokémon GO Tour live event or not, they’ve all been bombarding me all week with one question above any other: with the Origin Formes of both Dialga and Palkia about to arrive in GO, which one is better for PvP? Which one should folks choose along the Road To Sinnoh Special Research? Let’s start with our customary Bottom Line Up Front and see if we can answer your questions!
Just a quick note, the special moves will only be available for people playing Sinnoh Tour LA in person, not those participating via remote raids. They are however available for all trainers during the Global Tour at the end of the month!
B.L.U.F.
- Purely in terms of stats and uniqueness of the new move, Palkia is who I would vote for if I had to make the choice between the two.
- That said, Origin Dialga is also still an overall upgrade, and its new move is literally a straight upgrade of its existing primary closing move.
- In the end, there’s no right or wrong answer. Both are good, both are worth having for Master League enthusiasts, and even though the numbers say Origin Palkia is the “better” prize, the gap is really quite small. They’re both worth it.
Now let’s get right to the analysis!
DIALGA (ORIGIN FORME) Stats and Moves
Dialga (Origin)
SteelDragon
Master League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 239 | 202 | 184 |
(Assuming 15-15-15 IVs; 4624 CP at Level 50)
Dialga in any form is reasonably bulky, but it’s worth noting that Origin Forme is even bulkier than the OG, with the same HP but about 11 more Defense, and only about 4 less Attack. This makes it overall better than non-Origin Dialga, with Origin Forme having an overall stat product 372 points higher, and a CP 59 points higher than regular Dialga’s 4565. If it wasn’t already obvious: Origin Forme Dialga is pretty much strictly better than the original in terms of stats.
But of course, what makes Dialga truly special is the unique type combination. Steel/Dragon combines for a whopping 10 resistances (in order: Bug, Electric, Flying, Grass x2, Normal, Poison x2, Psychic, Rock, Steel, and Water) and only two weaknesses (Fighting and Ground). It is a Dragon that does NOT take super effective damage to Dragon, Fairy, OR Ice damage, and a Steel that also takes only neutral damage from Fire. And Diagla’s moves (which we’ll get to in a moment) deal big neutral damage to most everything, with a fantastic coverage move that deals super effective damage to most of the typical Dragon counters.
All that and, again, only TWO weaknesses. Dialga is a major factor in the number of Ground and sometimes Fighting types that show up in Master League. For a long time, it has been at the very nucleus of Master League.
A lot of that is the stats and typing, but of course, a good portion is also the moves. Origin has the same ones in the Pokémon GO Gamemaster (at the time of this writing) as does OG Dialga, with one notable addition. Let’s examine them and then get to some numbers!
Fast Moves
- Dragon Breath – Dragon type, 4.0 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 0.5 CoolDown
- Metal Claw – Steel type, 2.5 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 1.0 CD
Sometimes fast move analysis requires me to roll up my sleeves and dive into a detailed breakdown of multiple viable moves and explain why one is slightly better than the other.
This is not one of those times. It’s Dragon Breath every day and twice on Sunday. It deals 33% greater damage than the average while still generating average energy, whereas Metal Claw generates the same energy but deals LESS than average damage. Steel also isn’t a great offensive typing, being resisted by Steel, Electric, Fire, and Water types, whereas Dragon damage is resisted only by Steels and Fairies. And Dialga has the means to deal with Fairies thanks to its primary charge move….
ᴱ – Exclusive Move
Charge Moves
- Iron Head – Steel type, 70 damage, 50 energy
- Thunder – Electric type, 100 damage, 60 energy
- Draco Meteor – Dragon type, 150 damage, 65 energy, Reduces User Attack -2 Stages
- Roar Of Timeᴱ – Dragon type, 150 damage, 65 energy, no debuff
Iron Head is a must for any version of Dialga. Not only does it provide a low-cost move that is particularly important with only average energy gains from the fast move, but the coverage is important too, hitting everything that resists Dragon Breath (except Steel types) for at least neutral damage, and also nailing troublesome Fairy and Ice types (and half-Rock Rhyperior) for a super effective clapback. Iron Head isn’t a great move when you rack and stack it against other moves in PvP, but as anyone who has used Dialga will tell you, it’s a great move for Dialga specifically and a key part of why it just works so well.
To this point, it’s had the option of two different closers. Thunder is also not a great move but provides wide neutral coverage. But usually Draco Meteor is better. Being a Dragon move, it is resisted by very little (most of which, again, Iron Head deals with anyway), and its high damage output takes a huge chunk of the opponent’s health. The obvious downside, however, is the chunk it also takes out of Dialga’s Attack power, dropping it by two levels with each of the first two uses. (And let’s face it… you’re not often getting to a third anyway.) For this reason, it often makes sense to charge up to a Draco and fire off an Iron Head first to try and snag a shield, only to later follow up with a self-nerfing Meteor to try and finish the opponent off. You know, like how other moves with big drawbacks like Wild Charge, Brave Bird, Close Combat, etc etc etc are typically deployed in battle.
A Roaring Success
The new move solves all that, and about as cleanly as possible. Roar Of Time is an exact clone of Draco Meteor, without any drawback. This is a little hard to show in sims, but clearly this is a BIG deal for Dialga’s performance. The most obvious matchup where this will matter is the mirror match, where Dialga with Roar Of Time can fire it early and often without nerfing itself, while Draco Meteor Dialga has to still dance around and presumably still nab a shield with Iron Head. It is definitely advantage: Roar Of Time. And Origin Dialga has an advantage over regular Dialga thanks to its slightly higher bulk and should normally win the mirror anyway, even without Roar Of Time.
The slightly higher bulk gives Origin Dialga some additional wins too, mostly with shields down, where Origin can outlast Reshiram, Garchomp, Mamoswine, popular Dialga counter Ursaluna, and the new Origin Forme of Palkia, whereas regular Dialga simply cannot without outside help. In these cases, it is admittedly the extra bulk alone that creates new win opportunities, as Draco or Roar makes little difference since both are dealing the same damage and finishing things off the same (when Dialga can even reach it) and the drawback of Draco Meteor doesn’t really come into the picture.
But in general, the sims don’t show a big difference between Draco Meteor and Roar Of Time, certainly not in comparison to the improvement that comes with Origin vs non-Origin Dialga itself… but your actual play experience certainly should! Not having to hold off on firing your big, overpowered Dragon closing move because there is no longer any debuff dancing to do is a big deal and could change how Dialga is even used in PvP, for the better. You CAN still play it the same way with Iron Head baits but no longer have to as you did when stuck with Draco Meteor. More options that fit more playstyles is certainly a good thing. There will literally be no reason to use Meteor anymore after this when you have the choice between it and the new move. In other words, the rich just got richer.
PALKIA (ORIGIN FORME) Stats and Moves
Palkia (Origin)
WaterDragon
Master League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 253 | 200 | 171 |
(Assuming 15-15-15 IVs; 4683 CP at Level 50)
So unlike Origin Forme Dialga, which basically takes a bit from its Attack to boost its Defense, Origin Palkia gets a little boost to both, going from 248 Attack/193 Defense/171 HP/4512 CP to 253 Attack/200 Defense/171 HP/4683 CP. (If you feel like Dialga got the short end of the stick, it’s all about how Niantic factors in Speed and Special Defense from MSG stats. Anyway….) In end, the shifted stats still worked in Origin Dialga’s favor overall with a handful of extra wins, but in this case, this is literally a straight upgrade across the board. Already a big win for Palkia, enough that I can stop right here, without even factoring in the new moves, and say that Origin Forme already outpaces OG Palkia with new potential wins like Altered Giratina, Dragonite, and the mirror match even with existing moves. So that’s pretty neat!
But before I get too far ahead of myself, let’s get back on track. Palkia’s Water/Dragon typing is not nearly as impressive as Dialga’s Steel/Dragon, but still quite good on its own merits, with a resistance to Steel and double resistances to both Fire and Water, and it retains only the standard Dragon weaknesses to Fairy and Dragon damage. Conveniently, the normal Water weaknesses to Grass and Electric AND the regular Dragon weakness to Ice are all neutralized, which is pretty nifty.
Yes yes yes, we can get to the moves now….
Fast Moves
- Dragon Breath – Dragon type, 4.0 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 0.5 CoolDown
- Dragon Tail – Dragon type, 4.33 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 1.5 CD
Ah, now here’s one of those more nuanced fast move comparisons I was talking about before!
On paper, Dragon Tail is a better PvP move than Dragon Breath, generating the same energy but slightly higher damage. However, in actuality, it’s actually often the other way around, and it comes down mostly to another piece of the picture I always include in spotlight analyses like this but rarely mention: cooldown.
Put simply, cooldown in terms of PvP fast moves is how long the full animation and application of damage lasts for one fast move because you can start the next, regardless of how fast you’re tap tap tapping your screen. Some very high power fast moves like Gust, Confusion, and Incinerate last 4 or more turns, which every two PvP turns translating to one second of real time. So a move with a cooldown of 3, like Dragon Tail, lasts 1.5 seconds before you can advance to the next one OR begin use of a charge move you have enough energy for. A fast move with a cooldown of 1 — aka half a second — like Dragon Breath can not only keep firing about as often as you can tap, but it also can theoretically reach charge moves faster. Say you have a charge move that costs 49 energy. On paper, both Breath and Tail should reach the energy necessary for that at the same moment, but that’s not how it actually works. Let’s say you had a theoretical move that costs 60 energy. You might expect Breath and Tail to reach it at the same moment — the same PvP turn — since they generate the same amount of energy. But in reality, Dragon Breath will be ready to fire such a move off first, because it will get to exactly 60 energy in 20 turns/10 seconds, whereas Dragon Tail reaches 54 energy after 18 turns/9 seconds, and has to then slightly overcharge with one additional Dragon Tail taking it to 63 energy… and requiring an extra turn/0.5 second before it can actually lead into the 60-energy charge move. Regardless of who wins CMP, in that scenario and others like it, Dragon Breath and its shorter cooldown time wins the race.
Got all that? Good, because it’s time to move on to the charge moves. I’ll just put a bow on this by saying that you WILL see Dragon Tail users in PvP, and that’s not “wrong”. It’s just slightly less ideal most of the time when you have the option of Dragon Breath and its small cooldown instead. And now hopefully you better understand why!
ᴱ – Exclusive Move
Charge Moves
- Aqua Tail – Water type, 50 damage, 35 energy
- Spacial Rendᴱ – Dragon type, 95 damage, 50 energy
- Draco Meteor – Dragon type, 150 damage, 65 energy, Reduces User Attack -2 Stages
- Hydro Pump – Water type, 150 damage, 75 energy
- Fire Blast – Fire type, 140 damage, 80 energy
So there’s really not much point to the last two… you’re never going to see them in competitive play because the other moves just make them unnecessary.
To this point, Palkia has run effectively with Aqua Tail for spam and important Water damage, and now-familiar Draco Meteor to close things out. There’s just very little reason, even with the drawbacks of Meteor, to slowly build up another 10-15 energy to deal no more damage than Draco Meteor does anyway. Especially since there are so many things in the Master League meta (Dragons especially) that resist the Water or Fire damage those other closers deal out. There’s not much that resists the big gut punch of Dragon damage that Meteor dishes out.
And so it has trudged along with Breath/Aqua Tail/Draco and done just fine for itself and any player who has opted to invest.
But unlike Dialga, the new exclusive move that Origin Palkia is receiving is quite different than Draco Meteor, introducing a wholly different closing option. Spacial Rend comes MUCH cheaper than Draco Meteor, costing 15 less energy and still dealing nearly 100 damage, with no drawbacks. Just compare that to Dialga’s Iron Head (50 energy for only 70 damage) and you can appreciate just how good 50 for 95 really is.
This presents us with a tradeoff, though. Is it better to fire off about 50% less damage than Draco Meteor but be able to fire it off earlier and more often, or are we better off charging up that extra 15+ energy to deal out maximum damage?
To help answer that, we go to the sims….
Rendering A Decision
This is already running kind of long, so let’s just cut to the chase. We already established that Origin Forme Palkia is superior to regular Palkia in every way, all other things (read as: the moves) being equal. But what about the comparison between two Origin Palkias, one with Draco Meteor’s raw power but higher cost, and one with the lower power but spammier Spacial Rend? To put it simply, the new move Spacial Rend achieves more wins… but there are always tradeoffs.
In the most common shielding scenario — 1v1 shielding — Spacial Rend and Draco Meteor seem to tie, but actually Draco is getting a unique knockout versus Lugia, while Spacial Rend is instead outracing the new big bad of Master League: Zygarde Complete. Put simply, the Zygarde results are just that 35 energy for Aqua Tail and then only 50 needed for a KO Spacial Rend works, while Aqua Tail + 65-energy Draco Meteor is just too slow.
And while you would likely expect Draco Meteor’s big damage would have the advantage with shields down, the opposite is actually true. While Draco Palkia-O does quite well and is able to uniquely blow past Zygarde Complete and Solgaleo, Spacial Palkia-O can instead outrace Mewtwo, Dialga, and Draco Meteor Palkia (and, of course, ties in the Spacial Rend mirror match). And as compared back to non-Origin Palkia, Palkia-O gains all of those AND Excadrill in the 0shield matchup (as well as Dragonite and even Melmetal in 2v2 shielding.)
In Summation
So what’s it all mean? Well, first off, whichever path you take in the special research that rewards these two heavyweights, you win, as both of these are improved in Origin Forme and improved further with their special new exclusive move.
But the key question you’ve been wanting to ask (and many HAVE asked across my DMs) is: which one is better? And to that I will say that, in a vacuum, I think the bigger winner is PALKIA. Not only is the Origin Forme literally a straight upgrade in terms of stats and impact, but Spacial Rend is a very different move than anything is has now, and is an overall upgrade that gives it more flexibility and shield pressure (and no self-nerfing like you get with Draco Meteor). However, if you still lack a good Master League Dialga, then Origin Dialga could have much more value to you, as it is also undoubtedly better with Roar Of Time even if the sims don’t really show it much. After all, as I’ve said many times in the past, simulations like I fill my articles with are a great start to the story, but they’re not the end of the story. Real life gameplay and your own playstyle are huge factors that I can’t replicate in anything I write. In short, pick whichever of these Dragons makes you happiest and fits your style, and rest easy in the knowledge that you just made an upgrade. There’s np wrong way to go here. Enjoy!
Alright, that’s it for now. Good luck to those of you getting your first Origin Dialga or Palkia this weekend! Hopefully this analysis helps you feel better about your new project!
Special thanks to PvPoke and the PokeMiners for confirming the stats and moves coded in for these Dragons, and just for being awesome in general!
Until next time, you can always find me on Twitter with regular Pokémon GO analysis nuggets, or Patreon.
Stay safe out there, and catch you next time, Pokéfriends!
