A PvP Analysis on Force Palm (Lucario and more!)

I’ll be honest: when Force Palm was first announced, even before knowing the stats, I didn’t figure I’d need to write about it. After all, Counter is still a thing and still a Top 2 fast move in PvP, easily, and the one recipient of Force Palm already has Counter. How could Force Palm (or any new Fighting fast move) realistically overcome Counter?

So of course, Niantic threw a curveball by making Force Palm not better, but (at least on paper) an intriguing sidegrade. And so here we are, with the analysis I didn’t expect to have to write!

Let’s get right to it. Here’s a nice, simple comparison between Counter and the new Force Palm:

So it’s official: Force Palm, with a sum total of 7.66 (combining DPT and EPT) is better than Counter (7.5 combined) now, right? It’s not really that simple.

Consider another similar comparison: Dragon Tail and Dragon Breath. When Dragon Tail was buffed to its current 4.33 DPT/3.0 EPT, it too was initially lauded as the clear new favorite to Breath and its 4.0 DPT/3.0 EPT. I mean, the stats don’t lie, right? But in actuality, it eventually settled down that almost everything that has both (Dragonite being the most prominent example) usually still runs Dragon Breath in PvP even today. But… why? Tail is just better!

The main thing separating them is the same primary reason I think Counter will still muscle out Force Palm, a factor that I always list in my spotlight analysis articles that STILL usually goes overlooked: cooldown. People have asked many times over the years why I bother including it at all since it’s rarely a major talking point, and THIS is why.

Cooldown is simply how long it takes a fast move to complete a single use, how long you have to wait before you can mash the screen for the next fast move OR, of course, trigger a charge move. Each PvP turn is half a second of real time, so a 2 turn move equates to one second of time. Two or especially one turn moves not only feel good to use and spam (the latter basically firing off as quickly as you can tap the screen), but they also tend to synergize better with charge move use, as you don’t have to wait an extra second (or more!) to fire them off and can just tap the button right away, giving clear advantages in battle over something with a longer cooldown. As just one of many examples, consider Shadow Claw vs Hex. Both generate the same 4.0 EPT, but Shadow Claw will always win the race to charge move use because it’s a two turn move and Hex takes three turns. Shadow Claw will complete its animation and cooldown window and the charge move button will glow for use while Hex is still half a second from finishing. Make sense? Just one turn — half a second — makes a MASSIVE difference in battle. Just ask the many players suffering to one turn lag in GBL right now!

Anyway, some of the best fast moves in the game can overcome this because they’re just THAT good, with four turn/2.0 Cooldown Volt Switch and especially Incinerate (five turns, but a whopping 4.0 DPT and EPT these days) muscling out other available moves because, while clumsy to use (sometimes we’re sitting there screaming for the animation to finish so we can throw that charge move faster!), their impact in battle makes it worth it. MAYBE Force Palm can fall into that camp, but uh… I don’t have a great sense about that. Again, because Counter is just THAT good. This is essentially a sidegrade, and in many sidegrade situations, the shorter cooldown is going to win out. Just ask your local Dragonite user!

But what does the data say? Does my case hold water? Let’s go to the video tape!

LUCARIO

Lucario FightingSteel

The first and, for now, last question is what this does for Lucario, as it’s getting Force Palm this weekend and is currently the only thing set to receive it in Pokémon GO. There are a few places to check, but spoiler warning: nearly all of them indeed end up in Counter’s favor.

The most immediate comparison would be FANTASY CUP, which kicks off just hours before Force Palm Lucario arrives in the game. And as noted in my full Fantasy Cup analysis article, Counter is just more reliable than Force Palm. It IS close, but Counter can better outrace Galarian Weezing in 1shield, and Excadrill and Galarian Stunfisk in 0shield, and Force Palm also loses the head to head versus Counter Lucario in any matchup with shields (and does no better than tie even with shields down). Not only does Counter Lucario get to Power-Up Punch (a preferred charge move in Fantasy Cup, IMO) after just 10 turns/5 seconds (3.5 EPT times 10 turns = exactly 35 energy) while Force Palm requires TWO extra turns/one extra second to finish its cooldown (3.33 EPT times 12 turns = 40 energy), but even if you choose NOT to fire a charge move and try to just farm, Counter still wins, and a lot of it again comes down to cooldown; Counter lands the final KO in the middle of Force Palm’s cooldown period.

If you’re paying close attention, you may have seen that Force Palm gets to exactly 40 energy after 4 Palms and thought “aha! that should manage to tie Counter to 40-energy moves like the Blaze Kick and Thunder Punch Lucario would be more likely to run in OPEN GREAT LEAGUE, right?!” And you’d be right! But unfortunately, this isn’t the win for Force Palm Lucario that you might think it is. While it’s true that both get to a move like Blaze Kick at the exact same time (after Turn 12/6 seconds), it is STILL advantage Counter, as whether Counter Luc throws Blaze Kick or chooses to farm, as long as it’s willing to burn a shield on Force Palm Luc’s Blaze Kick, Counter will always win because, again, it can land the killing blow in the middle of Force Palm’s cooldown. The final Force Palm needed will never land because its user dies in the middle of trying to deliver it. And of course, we already showed that choosing NOT to fire a charge move will result in a farm down loss to Counter Luc anyway. Force Palm Lucario will simply ALWAYS be at a disadvantage.

That said, overall in Open GL, the differences between Counter and Force Palm are quite minor. In fact, the ONLY major difference I see is that, with shields down, Counter beats Bastiodon and Force Palm merely ties, once again due to that pesky long cooldown. (Counter can sneak in the final damage needed for the win versus Bastiodon’s 3-turn fast move Smack Down, while Force Palm and that last Smack Down instead KO on the same turn.) In fact, I pulled back the curtain on everything in Great League (all 962 Pokémon listed in PvPoke) and even there the differences are negligible, with Force Palm getting a handful of unique wins like Goodra, Shadow Nidoqueen, and Tapu Fini, and Counter getting its own unique wins like Melmetal, Rayquaza, and Crobat. Like I said, the differences are small… a 595 overall battle rating for Counter, and 603 for Force Palm. So yeah, if you can get a Force Palm Luc for GL, go ahead and do so, but I don’t know that this is one worth burning an Elite TM on if you already have a good Counter Lucario.

And briefly, the difference in Ultra League is pretty small as well. Force Palm can seemingly better outrace Shadow Dragonite in 1shield, Feraligatr with shields down, and Cobalion and Pidgeot in 2v2 shielding, while Counter instead knocks down Ampharos in 1shield, Shadow Swampert in 0shield, and Venusaur with both shields up. Worth having? Sure, I suppose so. Worth an Elite TM? I guess that’s your call, but personally, I can think of far better targets in my Pokédex.

As for Master League, I think Lucario is a little iffy anyway, but it seems that Counter is probably the better way to go as compared to Force Palm if you’re waiting for the return of Mega Master League or something.

In short, yes, Force Palm Lucario DOES seem to be viable, but likely the Counter Lucario you already have is just fine. Force Palm is NOT clearly better than Counter. This is true sidegrade material here that sneaks away with some new wins, but also has clear disadvantages usually coming down to that longer cooldown period.

OTHER COUNTER & FORCE PALM USERS

Now, I could spend a long time comparing the many OTHER Counter users that can also learn Force Palm in MSG, but honestly, that sounds to me like a LOT of grinding work for little (if any) really useful information. So instead, I’ll just list them all and promise that in any future format overviews (“Nifty Or Thrifty” writeups and such), I will peek at Force Palm to see if it would be particularly interesting. And there is, of course, no promise that ANY of these will ever get the move anyway, so… yeah, let’s just list them real quick:

• MEDICHAM (and Meditite)
• MARSHADOW
• CONKELDURR (and pre-evolutions)
• BRELOOM
• HARIYAMA (and Makuhita)
• IRON HANDS (not yet in GO)
• OKIDOGI (not yet in GO)

Now, that leaves a couple of other things worth spending a couple of extra minutes on…

FORCE PALM USERS THAT DO NOT LEARN COUNTER

Really just two worth talking about, so let’s get to them and wrap this up.

Mienshao Fighting

• MIENSHAO is one of several Fighters that SHOULD be more interesting than it is in PvP, with a variety of intriguing charge moves but no viable fast move. (No, Low Kick and its 2.0 DPT and 2.5 EPT is NOT viable.) It does have Poison Jab, one of the better fast moves in the game (3.5 DPT and EPT, which is really good), but it’s an awkward fit for a Fighter, especially when it lacks STAB damage. Between that and very poor bulk, Mienshao has just been bad in PvP. Like, really bad. Now I’m not saying that it’s going to move even into spice territory if it ever gets Force Palm, but you can’t argue with the vast improvement Force Palm would bring this poor thing, and even in multiple configurations. I for one would love to see Niantic show Mienshao this kind of love. Not like it would suddenly be anywhere close to broken, but I always appreciate new options to look at in at least Limited/Cup metas. Do it, Niantic! Pretty please?

Bewear FightingNormal

• Another interesting option would be BEWEAR. It too cannot learn Counter and is stuck without any viable Fighting fast moves in PvP (Low Kick is again its only option 🤢). Also like Mienshao, it comes with a really good non-STAB fast move in Shadow Claw, but that’s very awkward versus basically everything but Ghosts. A Fighter wants to be beating up on Normal and Dark types, and those both resist Shadow Claw. Bewear currently does okay almost despite this, but Force Palm would be a welcome upgrade that would make it a very interesting option in multiple formats, perhaps even including Open. At least in Great League… higher Leagues still are not too kind to it even with the theoretical addition of Palm.

IN SUMMATION

Okay, so what have we learned today? Should you go out and scoop up all the Lucario you can this weekend? Well, that’s your call, and there are certainly merits to getting as much XL Candy as you can for those who are able to grind. But if your reason for grinding it just to get Force Palm… well, maybe you can take it a little easy. It’s worth having around, especially if Niantic ever (shudder 😰) nerfs Counter. (And IMO, that would be a BIG mistake, as most Fighters live and die by Counter, and suddenly nerfing it would send some massive and probably unforeseen shockwaves through PvP and unbalance many metas suddenly and drastically. IMO, it’s balanced as is… leave it alone, Niantic! </rant>) But as long as Counter remains as it is, Force Palm is and likely will forever be just a curious sidegrade, and one that’s less interesting on Lucario than others. I WOULD love to see Mienshao and Bewear get it, though… that is the kind of “huh… neat!” tweaks I can get behind! 👍

Alright, that’s it for today! Until next time, for more PvP tidbits, you can find me on Twitter with regular analysis nuggets, or Patreon if you prefer. Or please feel free to comment here with your own thoughts or questions and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can!

Stay safe out there, Pokéfriends. Happy raiding, and catch you next time!