Howdy folks! Time for another double feature for November 2023 Community Day! I know lately I’ve been getting these out just a couple days before the event, but this time we’re getting an early look. For reasons we will soon get into, I felt it was important to get this review out there with plenty of time to spare and shuffled my schedule to try and do so. Let’s do a quick overview with our Bottom Line Up Front and then get into the analysis and discussion.
B.L.U.F.
- Good news first: Clodsire has crazy good bulk — like Azumarill/Registeel/Cresselia good — and a pretty good defensive typing.
- Other good news: Quagsire can absolutely make good use of its new Community Day move. This is one you’re going to want to have.
- On the downside, Clodsire has suffered a double move nerf just a week before its release. We will discuss this, at length, but suffice to say that it just shed a number of the wins that had people so excited about it.
- Paldean Wooper still looks very interesting for Little League, though… assuming it does not suffer a similar nerf.
Alright, now the analysis, starting right up front with the all-new Paldean mudder.
CLODSIRE Stats and Moves
Great League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 94 (93 High Stat Product) |
119 (121 High Stat Product) |
209 (213 High Stat Product) |
(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-14-13, 1500 CP, Level 30.5)
Ultra League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 119 | 139 | 245 |
(Assuming 15-15-15 IVs; CP 2207 at Level 50)
So the immediate notable is the insane bulk. In Great League, Clodsire has literally Top Ten HP, and is in the top dozen in overall stat product. It’s right up there with Azumarill, Cresselia, and Registeel, and better than known tanks like Araquanid, Alomomomomola, Steelix, Galarian Stunfisk, Diggersby, Jumpluff, and Lickitung.
FAST MOVES
- Mud Shot – Ground type, 1.5 DPT, 4.5 EPT, 1.0 CD
- Poison Sting – Poison type, 1.5 DPT, 4.5 EPT, 1.0 CD
Alright, here’s our first “what could have been?” discussion point. For much the last few months, Clodsire had Poison Jab (3.5 DPT, 3.5 EPT) assigned in the gamemaster. Now, a week before release, that has been dropped and replaced by Poison Sting. Now in fairness, Sting is not a bad move. The problem is that Clod’s other fast move is an exact clone for Ground: Mud Shot. This removes a lot of flexibility from Clodsire, leaving it without any fast move pressure option and instead with two fast moves that deal hardly any damage (especially with its very low Attack stat) and put all the onus on the charge moves to overcome. In other words, Clodsire has now essentially become a Ground/Poison Regi. Is that a bad thing, necessarily? Well, first let’s check out what charge moves it has and then we’ll put it all together… and then see what else it lost along the way.
ᴱ – Exclusive (Community Day) Move
CHARGE MOVES
- Acid Spray – Poison type, 20 damage, 45 energy, Reduces Opponent Defense -2 Stages
- Sludge Bomb – Poison type, 80 damage, 50 energy
- Stone Edge – Rock type, 100 damage, 55 energy
- Megahornᴱ – Bug type, 110 damage, 55 energy
- Water Pulse – Water type, 70 damage, 60 energy
- Earthquake – Ground type, 110 damage, 65 energy
So in the end… this is no Regi. While Clodsire does come with three charge moves that deal triple digit damage (including the Community Day move Megahorn), none of them come close to the 130-150 damage closers the OG Regi trio have like Focus Blast and Zap Cannon. Regisire maxes out at 110 damage (plus STAB, at least) with Earthquake. Then the new Megahorn also deals 110 (though without STAB) and Stone Edge gets a flat 100.
But ironically, about the best it can do by putting together a combination of those closing moves is the old, pre-Mud Bomb Quagsire moveset: Stone Edge/Earthquake. Overall, Clod does it better than Edge/Quake Quag ever could thanks to that superior bulk and Fighting-resistant typing netting wins that old-school Quagsire couldn’t like Medicham (without Psychic… we’ll revisit this later), Vigoroth, Scrafty, Umbreon, Sableye, DDeoxys, Mantine, and Shadow Victreebel, though the superior Attack (and sometimes that Water subtyping) of Quag allowed it to beat things like G-Fisk, Froslass, Dewgong, Water Gun Lanturn, and Mandibuzz that similar-moved Clodsire stuggles with.
That all said, I think a better (and certainly more unique, as compared to Quagsire) moveset for Clod to consider centers around Sludge Bomb, which deals notably less damage than any of the true “closing” moves, but also comes a bit faster and obviously with Poison damage that operates quite differently from Quagsire. Ironically, this works less well with Earthquake than it does with Stone Edge. While Quake is crucial to beating Alolan Sandslash and knocking out Medicham (again, assuming it lacks or just never lands Psychic {the move}), only with Stone Edge does Clod take down Charizard, Mantine, and Noctowl, only with Sludge Bomb does Clodsire uniquely take down Lickitung and even Trevenant, and only with the combination of the two can Clodsire outrace Mandibuzz and Cresselia.
Edge/Bomb is also arguably the better moveset in 2v2 shielding as well, able to beat Azumarill, Scrafty, Vigoroth, Shadow Victreebel, Cofagrigus, and Cresselia, whereas Edge/Quake beats G-Fisk and Alolan Sandslash but trails badly otherwise. I will give a shoutout to Quake/Mud Bomb here, which retains the ability to beat Azumarill, G-Fisk, Scrafty, Vigoroth, Shadow Vic, and A-Slash, and while it does drop Mantine, Noctowl, and Cresselia without Stone Edge, the Quake/Bomb combo can beat Water Gun Lanturn and Medicham… now even with Psychic (the move)!
And finally, with shields down, there is again a debate to be had. Stone Edge is again necessary for Charizard, Dewgong, and Mantine. Sludge Bomb is needed if you want to beat Serperior, Trevenant, and (specifically in combination with Earthquake) Water Gun Lanturn again, and Clod cannot fell Jellicent, A-Slash, Steelix, Umbreon, or Medicham without a big Earthquake. What combination of those fits YOUR needs best? It’s a real pickle.
The shame of it is… we almost had FAR less debate on what to run. Not only was Clodsire nerfed in the fast move department prior to release… it was gutted in its charge move package too. Currently it has the so-awful-I-haven’t-bothered-mentioning-it-yet Water Pulse, dealing only 70 damage for 60 energy. That’s less damage than every other move Clod has except bait-and-switch move Acid Spray, while also costing more energy than every move except Earthquake (and that one deals an additional 40 damage plus STAB for only 5 additional energy!). To add insult to injury, the Water move that Clodsire originally had assigned that was replaced with the terrible Pulse? Surf, which deals only 5 damage less than Pulse and costs 20 less energy (40 energy, 65 damage).
Clodsire with Surf would have been able to beat Medicham, the scourge of Play! Pokémon tournaments that consistently appears on 75% (or often more) of teams, in all even shield scenarios. [Clodsire with Poison Jab]() would have been able to beat Medi in shieldless and 2v2 shield scenarios and an IV-dependant win or, at worst, a near-tie in 1shield too. The what-could-have-beens versus Medicham alone are a bitter pill to swallow. But consider how much more unique, consistent, and versatile Clodsire would have been had it retained Poison Jab or Surf or, while we’re dreaming, both of those moves. Now you’d be able to beat things like Azumarill, Gligar, Cresselia, Lickitung, Mandibuzz, Alolan Ninetales, Trevenant, Serperior, Venusaur, and Lanturn… without having to choose. Or what would more likely end up being featured in major tournaments would be the Poison-heavy Jab/Surf/Sludge Bomb variant that had so many excited for its ability to consistently beat Medicham in all even shield scenarios while retaining all other notable Jab/Surf wins listed above except A-Slash, Toxicroak, and WG Lanturn (which basically require Earthquake).
(Heck, there would have even been a legit shot for Clodsire to show up as a spicy option in Ultra League! But alas.)
I know I’m throwing a LOT of simulations at you, and I do apologize. To sum up, what we’re left with for Clodsire is certainly passable (especially with high rank IVs to better guarantee things like Mandibuzz, Cresselia, and Steelix), and with multiple viable variants, but honestly, just not truly meta-shaking. And that is what many were hoping for with it, with either one (or both!) of its now-lost moves. We’ve certainly had other last-minute move shakeups that dashed the hopes of PvPers… remember Araquanid losing Lunge and Crunch just before release, replaced by Bug Buzz and freaking Mirror Coat? (My lips STILL curl when I remember the analysis (and excitement) dashed to pieces over that one.) Or Hawlucha losing Wing Attack and Sky Attack (at the time still a great PvP move) just before it arrived? Or more recently, Gogoat losing the Rock Slide that made it special just before release? One could say that, in a way, we are our own worst enemies by poring over unreleased movesets found by good folks like the PokeMiners, setting ourselves up for disappointment when Niantic changes their minds.
And in the case of Clodsire, one could say that more directly, with some folks (who will remain unnamed, because I consider several of them friends that I just happen to strongly disagree with in this case) posting actual infographics advocating for the removal of Poison Jab and Surf before Clod’s release. They got what they asked for… and I think the game is much worse off now for it. Instead of a Pokémon that could have actually shaken up the meta — I believe in far more positive ways than not, such as bringing some bona fide (and badly needed) Medicham control — without being out of balance, we now instead get something that does… what? Sure, it will make many appearances in GBL and Limited metas moving forward, but it’s now just another bit player that shifts nothing. It’s just one more of a myriad of options that will likely not appear on the competitive circuit where it had SO much badly needed potential, and instead fade away as another “what if?” lost cause.
Niantic, if you’re reading this, I beg of you to reconsider. There is still time before release. Megahorn does nothing for this thing. I ask you to consider also giving it Poison Jab as at least a Community Day exclusive move. (It would be unique and interesting then without being broken.) Or give it Surf back. Or heck, even both. Players WANT some actual, bona fide shakeup. People have been looking forward to it with this Pokémon in particular. Please don’t listen to the request of a few, but the many. The majority of top players (many, many such players) are disappointed, to say the least, to include last season’s World Champion. So again, as even Mr. PvPoke and others have asked, I am requesting Niantic please reconsider. It’s not too late. The meta feels stale, as others have said, and this would be a welcome breath of fresh air to try out and (as noted by PvPoke) a missed chance to put “more trust in the players to adapt than dialing back new Pokémon.”
Again.
Well, for now, it is what it is. Not a bad overall addition to the meta, but I fear it will get lost in a sea of options rather than standing out as it could have. Maybe that’s for the best, but I’m having trouble seeing it from where I sit.
What do YOU think, Pokéfriends? Sound in with your own comments!
In the meantime, there is another all-new addition coming with this Community Day….
PALDEAN WOOPER
So OG Wooper has been a staple in Little League formats, including its Shadow form, and also including some secret strats (with Purified Wooper) and also some new and improved tech with the big buff to Dig this season.
But it’s nothing compared to Paldean Wooper. While Wooper’s typing gives it some advantages and wins that go along with them (to include Onix, Barboach, Ice Shard Seel, Alolan Sandshrew, and occational Little League players like Swampert and Walrein, Paldean Wooper gets many more unique wins that include (in order) Altaria, Bulbasaur, Cottonee, Golbat, Igglybuff. Mandibuzz (and Vullaby), Obstagoon, Scrafty, Shelmet and more. Some of it is the typing, but a large part of it is retaining the Poison Jab that was teased and then dropped from Clodsire’s movepool. Consider Paldean Wooper’s success a dichotomy of some of Clodsire’s missed potential. And it will be even better if it ever gets a Shadow version down the road.
Alright, I think I’ve harped enough on the Paldean side. Let’s go back to good old Quagsire and see how it fares with its new move.
QUAGSIRE Stats and Moves
Great League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 111 (112 High Stat Product) |
112 (114 High Stat Product) |
161 (165 High Stat Product) |
(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-15-14, 1499 CP, Level 29)
Ultra League Stats
| Attack | Defense | HP |
|---|---|---|
| 140 | 133 | 194 |
(Assuming 15-15-15 IVs; CP 2252 at Level 50)
So obviously not nearly the same bulk as Clodsire, but still pretty good (much closer to Whiscash than Swampert in terms of bulk), and arguably a better defensive typing combination than Clod. Mud Boys famously have just one weakness: Grass (albeit a double weakness). Nothing else deals better than neutral damage, and some things that pick on Clod’s Ground typing (Ice and Water) deal only neutral damage to Quag thanks to Water neutralizing them. In the end, Quagsire ends up resisting Electric, Poison, and Rock thanks to its Ground typing, and Steel and Fire thanks to its Water typing.
But you’re here for the moves, so let’s get to those!
FAST MOVES
- Mud Shot – Ground type, 1.5 DPT, 4.5 EPT, 1.0 CD
- Water Gun – Water type, 3.0 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 0.5 CD
There have been Limited metas (mostly those filled with Flyers) where I have recommended Water Gun as a legit alternative, but let’s be honest… as with the other OG Mud Boys, usually it’s ride or die with Mud Shot. I don’t think you really need further analysis here, other than to say that all the pressure is then put on the charge moves. So let’s check those out!
ᴱ – Exclusive (Community Day) Move
ᴾ – Purified-only Move
CHARGE MOVES
- Aqua Tailᴱ – Water type, 50 damage, 35 energy
- Mud Bomb – Ground type, 55 damage, 40 energy
- Acid Spray – Poison type, 20 damage, 45 energy, Reduces Opponent Defense -2 Stages
- Sludge Bomb – Poison type, 80 damage, 50 energy
- Stone Edge – Rock type, 100 damage, 55 energy
- Earthquake – Ground type, 110 damage, 65 energy
- Returnᴾ – Normal type, 130 damage, 70 energy
Raise your hand if you didn’t even KNOW that Quagsire comes with the same Poison charge moves that Clodsire is getting. You’d be forgiven for having no idea, since you’ll basically never see them despite their obvious direct-answer-to-Grasses utility. I will confess I personally got beaten by a Sludge Bomb Quagsire in a Silph Arena battle once upon a time because even though I DID know it was part of its movepool (as that’s kind of my “job” 😉), I figured, who the heck would actually DO that? Whoops!
Anyway, moves that HAVE seen all the usage to this point are the Ground moves and Stone Edge. It used to be Earthquake/Edge, but that was in the days before Mud Bomb, which has particularly become the favorite of the now-popular Shadow Quag. The main issue Quagsire had for a long time was having no bait/speed potential like Swampert (Hydro Cannon) or Whiscash (Mud Bomb). Getting Bomb finally fixed that and has allowed it to take off at last in PvP.
And now comes a move that’s faster than any of those: Aqua Tail, the exclusive move Quag is getting this month. It scales nicely with Mud Bomb, dealing 5 less damage for 5 less energy. But perhaps even more important than the lower cost is the typing, as Tail is a Water move. To this point, the only Water damage Quag has had to work with was fast move Water Gun. And many of the new wins you get with Aqua Tail come due to that type of damage, with Gligar (regular and Shadow), Steelix, and Diggersby all moving into the win column… along with Vigoroth just due to the sheer speed of Tail. There is one loss, though: Water Gun Lanturn, which takes super effective damage from Mud Bomb but, of course, resists Aqua Tail. If that’s a major concern, you can mitigate it by running Tail/Quake instead of Stone Edge, which gains Lanturn back as well as DDeoxys, Scrafty, and the mirror, but then you have the problem of how to overcome Flyers like Mandibuzz and Noctowl and Shadow Gligar, and Ices like Froslass and Dewgong, or how to outrace Vigoroth and such (all of which require Stone Edge as THE key piece).
However you slice it, though, Aqua Tail would seem to be a very solid sidegrade, at worst, and it’s probably more fair to call it an upgrade. This is also the case in other shielding scenarios, such as 0shield (where Aqua Tail beats Gligar, Diggersby, and the mirror, while Mud Bomb instead buries Registeel, Medicham, and Water Gun Lanturn), and 2v2 shielding (Aqua Tail washes away Steelix, Charizard, Cofagrigus, and Shadow Gligar, Mud Bomb instead beats Azumarill, Lanturn, and Jellicent). More of a sidegrade there than upgrade, but still a very good one.
And while I don’t know that I’d recommend it, you can even run with Aqua Tail and Mud Bomb, forgoing the knockout power necessary to beat Dewgong, Shadow Gligar, Mandibuzz, Noctowl, or Vigoroth to instead get the Diggersby, Steelix, and Gligar wins, and pickup new wins like Sableye, DDeoxys, and even Mud Boy King Swampert!
You might expect Shadow Quagsire to perhaps prefer the spam of Aqua Tail/Mud Bomb, but it actually isn’t at its best in that configuration, I don’t think. While Aqua Tail is able to take down Charizard, Shadow Gligar, and the mirror, and Mud Bomb defeats WG Lanturn and Toxicroak, you require Stone Edge to beat Pelipper, Noctowl, Alolan Ninetales, Gligar (alongside Aqua Tail), and/or DDeoxys and Jellicent (alongside Mud Bomb). I DO think that if ShadowQuag wants Ground damage, it wants Mud Bomb and not Earthquake, so once again I think the best options are Edge/Tail or Edge/Mud Bomb for Shadow.
Your choice between Aqua Tail or Mud Bomb on ShadowQuag is about more than just their effectiveness, though. It’s also somewhat about your playstyle and where Quag would appear in your line of three. Mud Bomb is better than Aqua Tail overall with shields down, beating Registeel, Steelix, Cofagrigus, and Spark Lanturn, while Tail only uniquely beats Shadow (not even normal!) Gligar. But in 2v2 shielding, it’s probably not a surprise that Aqua Tail and its superior speed pulls a bit ahead of Mud Bomb with special wins versus some familiar names like Charizard, Diggersby, enemy Quagsires, and Gligar (Shadow or normal now), whereas Mud only nabs Azumarill and Water Gun Lanturn as its unique wins.
End of the day, there remains room for multiple different move configurations on Quagsire, both new and old-school. Which moves you use depend on your team, playstyle, and heck, even just personal preferences. For my money though, I think Aqua Tail/Stone Edge is likely to emerge as my new personal favorite for general use… but I will absolutely be holding on to my existing Mud Bo,b and even Earthquake variants too. They ALL have use and the Ground moves will surely be better options in certain metas. Do not toss them out… just grab new Aqua Tail Quagsires for your collection as well while you can do so without needing any Elite TMs.
IN SUMMATION….
As I just mentioned, QUAGSIRE is a winner with new move Aqua Tail. It doesn’t outright replace existing Quags, but it IS highly competitive and may become your go-to for Open play, or at the very least in the right Limited metas!
As for CLODSIRE… I know I spent a couple paragraphs asking for Niantic to reconsider their big pre-release nerf of its best fast move AND good bait/coverage charge move, but I don’t want to give the wrong idea to you, dear reader: this is still a very good Pokémon that WILL surely make some waves in Great League play. It would be hard for it NOT to with that typing and amazing bulk and still-decent array of charge moves. It just could have been so much more.
Alright, that’s all we got for today. I know this is quite early (Community Day doesn’t take place until Sunday at 2:00pm local time), but I wanted to get this out in time for you to still grind for Shadow Woopers (or at least remove Frustration from some), and for Niantic to read this and perhaps still change their minds about Clodsire. Seriously folks, I know you read these, so one last time: giving it at least Poison Jab OR Surf back ain’t gonna break anything, except perhaps your beloved Medicham. Let us players live a little, eh?
Thus endeth analysis article #497, and I’m starting to put together the frame of #500. But for now, until next time, you can always find me find me on Twitter with regular GO analysis nuggets or Patreon, if you’re feeling extra generous.
Good hunting, folks! Do stay safe out there, and catch you next time, Pokéfriends!
(Header art by Brian Danger Art (modified by JRE), used with permission. Thanks, Brian!)
